Libby Brodie of Bacchus & Brodie on communication, old vs. new world, and subjectivity in wine

Todd: Hello and welcome back to CWO.digital, where we’re talking about innovation in wine. Today’s guest is Libby Brodie, CWO wine expert and founder of the Bacchus & Brodie Wine Consultancy.

Recently announced in the Top 100 Most Influential In Drink list, Libby writes for many publications including Conde Nast, the Independent, Club Oenologique and Cosmopolitan—and she is the dedicated wine columnist for City AM, London’s most read business paper.

Libby travels the world as a judge for the IWSC, has presented on TV, radio, and appeared on various podcasts, and she co-founded the Wine Collective to improve the visibility of women in the wine industry. She also has her own YouTube channel, Libby Brodie Wine, and a prolific Instagram @Libby Brodie, where she shares wine tips and tricks. I can’t wait to hear her thoughts on innovation in the wine space.

And so, Libby, welcome to CWO.digital! Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Maybe we could start by getting to know you a little bit better. Could you let our listeners know how you came to choose your career?

Libby: Ah, yes. That was somewhat accidental, and somewhat necessity driven. I’ve loved wine as a drinker since my early twenties when I first got taken to a wine tasting and discovered that it actually tasted better than Smirnoff Ice! I began reading lots of books and talking to sommeliers at restaurants.

I was, professionally, a theatre producer. That’s the business side of showbiz; the contracts and the planning and the spreadsheets. I had a number of shows across the world which were all closed down by the pandemic. Overnight, I lost all of that, my investors’ money, and everything. That was rather awful.

So I took to drink, shall we say… It was really the only other thing I had a lot of information about and that I really enjoyed. I did my levels one, two, and three, the WSET (Wine &Spirit Education Trust) in six months. Which if anyone has done those exams, they’ll know it’s quite a lot to do that in six months. I managed to pass every exam with distinction, including the blind tasting, which was a bit nerve wracking. And then I launched my consultancy, Bacchus & Brody Wine Consultancy in January 2021, with the idea I was going be delivering wines for events. But that didn’t go to plan either because, the gentleman who made my website told me that I needed to write a blog to get people to look at my website. I’d never actually written anything before, but within a few weeks of that, I’d been picked up by City AM. A few weeks after that, I was their regular wine columnist. And it turned out that I had a few fans from my Instagram page and some YouTube things I’d done.

So I was invited to teach Joe Marler, who played for England Rugby, about wine on his podcast. Then a film, and a series for YouTube. So suddenly I was more of a face for wine, or a wine communicator.

Todd: That’s a real a whirlwind journey. Congratulations on nailing all of those distinctions for your wine exams! I’m really interested in that shift towards writing about wine. There’s a quote I love; which I think is from Frank Zappa, where he said that “writing about music is like dancing about architecture”. I feel like the same maybe applies for wine. It’s so hard to write about flavour and those kind of intangible aspects. How do you approach it?

Libby: I love that quote too. I’m going to have to use that.

Firstly, we have to communicate to get more people interested in naturally learning about wine and experiencing it, wanting to travel and try it and eat with it, and all that sort of stuff. And there are different ways to communicate. I’m a big fan of the rise of social media. YouTube, and the more visual medias, will draw in audiences that might not be already reading Decanter Magazine. They might see something on YouTube and go; ‘that’s interesting. I want to try wine’. I also love things like this; podcasts, radio programs, etc. It is not just necessarily the written word, as long as we communicate.

I don’t believe in tasting notes. I know there’s a reason for it to give you a placeholder of what the wine might taste like. But actually, my tongue isn’t your tongue. So if I’m getting apple, you might be getting pear. I’m getting lime. You’re getting lemon. It’s a subjective thing.

Also so much of what we taste and smell is locked into our memories. We don’t taste in a vacuum. So I might taste of wine and go; ‘oh God, that smells like my grandmother’s perfume, and I hated staying with her in the summer, it was awful…’ Whereas you might go; ‘ah, that really reminds me of this beautiful field when I was in Provence, this amazing holiday…’

We’ll have different reactions because of all those things in our minds. So actually, although I’m sometimes asked to write tasting notes, I prefer to write about and talk about the story of the wine, the people who’ve made it, how it’s made, and let people make their own mind up about whether they want to drink it or what they feel about it.

Todd: You’re so right about those memory flashes that can happen, when a wine pulls you in. I really love your approach of kind of trying to focus on the universal, rather than the personal. But on the personal side… What is an average day on the life like, for you?

Libby: there is no average day for anyone in wine, because we all have many different hats. That’s just a necessity, particularly in writing. So people do many, many different jobs.

For example, I’m also a single mum; so this morning I was up early with my son to get him up, washed, dressed, breakfast, and to school. I came back, prepped the wines that I’m doing this evening, which includes some tasting. Yes, it is 10:00 AM and I have already had some wine, but I did spit!

So I prepped some wine and made some notes for this evening. Obviously then doing this lovely podcast interview with you. Now I’m going straight from this to a Provence lunch with an MW (Master of Wine) who is going to be taking us through some wines that are being released this summer.

I’m going straight from there to interview two people for one of my columns, which is Libby’s Naked Diary, where I turn up to different places and different people with a bottle of wine from Naked Wines.

And then from there I’m going to be hosting a CWO event this evening at the Rosewood, and taking your lovely people through a bunch of wines with a quiz and a competition, probably getting home around 11 o’clock this evening.

Todd: Suffice to say you’re fairly busy…

Libby: Yes, it could be hosting events, it could be working on social media campaigns, it could be producing content for clients, it could be writing. I fly around the world an awful lot for press trips and judging as well. I’m also a wine judge. So yes, a whole bunch of stuff.

Todd: Wow. Well then thank you for carving out a small portion of your busy day to chat to me now…

This is part of our Innovation In Wine season, and in some aspects it’s proved fairly controversial, because wine is not necessarily known for innovation. It’s so steeped in tradition, and those traditions must be protected. So I’m curious where you stand on the subject of innovation. Are you threatened by it? Or do you do you love to mix things up and push the envelope in new areas?

Libby: I am sure many people would classify me as someone who does like to push the envelope. In the core of my being, I’m probably more of a traditionalist, but I believe that tradition should encompass everyone.

I do think that wine has had this image of being elitist; of being pale, male and stale. But I’d like to separate this question into two different areas, if you will. One is the wine industry, and one is the wine makers.

Wine makers are pioneers. These people have created wine and all the different wine styles, and they have spent years tending vines and trying different trellising techniques and different soils and different irrigation systems and different barrels and concrete eggs and stainless steel. Should they ferment the sparkling in a tank or in a bottle? They are very innovative and always have been. They have created these flavours, these nuances in wine. Created a product that can store for decades or be drunk straight away. Innovation has always been present in wine.

But has it been celebrated? Has it been accepted? Has it been explored? Do the public know about it? Probably not. Many people just think of wine as something on the shelves of a supermarket. Maybe it comes from a factory. Maybe it comes from the cellar of a red-trousered guy. But nobody really sees these incredible pioneers, these hardworking farmers on the land.

I think that innovation needs to be celebrated. I also think that we can’t stay the same. Nothing can stay the same. I think of life as like a shark. You stay still, you die. All these different regions of developing the wines, all these new techniques are coming in, and I’m a big advocate of that; of wiping away the idea that wine is owned by one subsect and actually celebrating the innovations that suit many different palettes and many different cuisines. I want to celebrate wines that come from all over the world and are made in different ways because at the end of the day, wine is subjective. It’s an art form, and it’s got to suit the consumer. But no consumer is the same as the next consumer. We all want to try something a bit different.

Todd: How different are the younger generation of wine drinkers from those who came before?

Libby: They are a bit problematic for us because many of them aren’t drinking as much. I mean, that’s probably very good for them. One of the wonderful things is they tend to be drinking more expensive wines, or rather better quality.

The younger generation tend to be more concerned about if wines are sustainable and the impact of their money. And so that really holds winemakers to account, to be more eco-friendly, which is fantastic. But it does mean that less wine is getting drunk and therefore paid for, which is putting a bit of pressure on the industry.

Todd: Yes, I can imagine. Is the industry still dominated by what might be considered the old world? Or are there new regions emerging that we should keep an eye on?

Libby: One of the most exciting things coming up because of the younger generation is the Low or No-alc category. That’s something to really keep an eye on at the moment. Beers and spirits seem to have done better than wine, but there are some fantastic wine options out there. And I particularly do love the sparkling teas you get, because they have that sort of tannin that mimics wine quite well if you’re having it with food.

Also English wine. I’m a huge advocate of English wine. How amazing that we’ve gone from a national joke to a national treasure! Champagne has come over and bought up a whole load of land here, because our soils are fantastic. The climate is changing, and that’s obviously bad overall, but great for English wine. We have some terrific wines coming up in England and surprisingly Wales as well. They’re doing some very fruit forward, very light and very environmentally conscious sparkling wines.

Also we should look at Asian wines. They do wonderful Bordeaux blends in China. I’ve had some fantastic Rieslings and wonderful sparkling wines from there too.

If we move away from the Eurocentric, old world way of doing things, there are wines being created for completely different dishes. For example, if you have a curry, the Eurocentric way to pair that would be with an off-dry white to soften the heat. But if you talk to someone from India and they’ll say ‘Why? We like the heat!’ So they will have a tannic red with their curry.

I was in the Maldives recently, and the way that they pair their food with their wine us totally different, but absolutely delicious. So I think it’s all about throwing away the rulebook and experimenting with palettes from all over the globe.

Todd: Absolutely fascinating. I’m interested particularly that you touched on climate change there. There are horrible things in the news every day. Is it also changing the communities of winemakers?

Libby: I think everyone’s feeling the impact; winemakers, particularly. They’re trying to tend to these vines that they’ve lovingly planted and looked after for years. Now there are horrible droughts and terrible hailstorms and early frost. It can be quite disastrous.

I do think the old world has slightly handcuffed itself, because in Europe they have all these rules about what grapes can get planted in certain regions. Only if you’ve stuck to all the rules that have been set can your wines be classified as from that region and labelled as such. The problem is that many of those grapes aren’t doing as well in the changing climate. So what they need to be able to do is plant different grapes, to adapt the wines they are making to fit the world we’re living in right now.

The new world has a bit of a bit of an edge here, because what they get to do is far more experimental, because they haven’t tied themselves into any rules. All winemakers that I’ve spoken to are planting different grapes to see how they do, are trying different things all the time.

Todd: I’m glad that they are. What do you think will be the main difference in the world of wine, ten years from now?

Libby: Well, I hope it’s still very much here!

I’m relying on the younger generation coming back to us. I think there’s going to be a lot more openness, a lot more diversity, a lot more different voices talking about wine and therefore encouraging people into wine. Wine comes in fashions and trends. So right now, we’re seeing a real rise in white wines from Italy, where red wines have previously been dominant. That may well go back again. These things ebb and flow. But I think we will have secure sustainability practices everywhere.

Todd: Looking now from the future to the present, is there anything going on in the hidden corners of the industry that hasn’t yet hit the public consciousness?

Libby: I wouldn’t say there’s a common theme that everyone’s excited about. I was quite shocked recently by Lambrusco as a fashion trend. I thought that was a terrible wine. But actually it’s fantastic. Really fun, really light, really fruity, bubbly, exactly what the public’s going more and more towards in style.

But we are mainly excited about new things. Wines happening in Asia, wines happening in Africa. Wines that come from pockets of the world that aren’t hitting the restaurants here yet.

London is an amazing place for the import market, because London has always been a melting pot for all these different wines to come into. We are really ahead of the game globally, but very rarely do you actually see many Chinese wines, Indian wines, Uruguayan wines…

Todd: Who wouldn’t be excited by that. I’m also so pleased to hear that Lambrusco is about to have a moment. I been a Lambrusco fan for years and was always made fun of for it.

Libby: Oh, wonderful, so you are already a convert!

Todd: Can you recommend any books or documentaries that touch on any of the topics we’ve discussed?

Libby: There’s Wine: Taste, Pair, Pour by Charlotte Kristensen. That’s got recipes, it’s got pairing ideas. It’s a really beautiful coffee table book, which is very informative.

There’s The Alcorithm, by Rob Buckhaven. He’s the Metro drinks editor and he’s done something quite clever, where he takes something you like, and then tells you other drinks that you might try. He helps you expand your palette preferences, which is pretty cool for those interested in natural wine.

There’s Natural Wine, No Drama, by Honey Spencer. That’s everywhere at the moment. These books are really good if you want to learn a bit more about wine.

I also love the podcast Eat, Sleep, Wine, Repeat which talks to wine professionals about specific regions and techniques. It’s a bit more techy, but it’s absolutely fantastic for learning.

Todd: Thank you so much Libby, that’s given us so much to think about and explore. We’ve just about run out of time today, but if you could leave our listeners with one final piece of advice to help them get more out of wine, what would you say to them?

Libby: Stay curious. Keep trying. Don’t drink something if you don’t like it. There’s no point. But keep trying different things all the time.

Todd: That’s great advice. Thank you so much, Libby. It’s been a pleasure to speak to you.

Libby: You too. Thank you so much for having me.

Todd: I’d like to thank Libby Brody again for joining me on the show. And thanks to you for listening.

Don’t forget to visit CWO.digital for more episodes and articles, and until next time, thanks again.